Episode 4: Let's Talk FinCrime and Human Risk

When it comes to financial crime, it’s the job of compliance to help people in the industry do the right thing. But what’s the science behind how people make decisions each day?

In episode 4 of Let’s Talk FinCrime, we’ll talk to Christian Hunt, founder of Human Risk, as we apply behavioral science to compliance, ethics and financial crime.

You can hear more of our conversation with Christian by visiting actimize.nice.com/podcast

Transcript

Unknown: 0:06

Hi, and welcome back to let's talk fin crime, the show where we explain not only what compliance and financial crime are, but most importantly, what it means for you, and how it affects your daily life. As always, I'm your host, Dave Ackerman. I'm a lawyer, former Chief Compliance Officer, and financial regulation expert for nice atomise. based in New York City, we strive to bring you conversations with some of the most interesting people that we can find, all designed to help you understand what's happening in the financial world. This week, we're talking about human decision making, the impact of human decision making is greater than ever before, because of the tremendous power granted by technology. There's no greater example of this than the interaction between financial institutions and their customers. We've seen it in the news recently, the average mom and pop investor has way more power and influence than they realize, in this episode of Let's talk fin crime, we're going to discuss how you are potentially being influenced, what risks do your own brains create, and the abilities that you can use to get the best out of yourself when interacting with financial institutions. Our guest today is Christian hunt. Christian is the founder of human risk. He has over 25 years of experience in financial services working in investment banking, asset management, and a family office. Most recently, and most interestingly, for me, he was a managing director and head of behavioral science at a major bank. Christian is trying to bring science to compliance, and he's going to help us understand what that means for us. So with that, I'm excited to introduce Christian, how you doing Christian? Thank you for joining us. Pleasure to be here, Dave. Awesome. So let's dig right into this. I love jumping in. Why? Why do we use a bank or a financial institution at all? what's what's the point? Why don't we just stick our money under mattresses like my grandmother used to after the depression? So I think it's really interesting, because on the face of it, you sort of go What, what your why, why, why do we have banks there? Well, the answer is that we one need somewhere to store money store assets. The second thing is we may need to borrow money from them. If we want to buy a house, for example, we tend not to have that kind of money lying around. So we need someone to help finance that maybe we want to buy a car, we need financing. And of course, they perform a whole host of other functions. But if you go back to basics, you know, why did banks exist in the first place, it was for those core things, it was to be able to securely keep your assets somewhere. And also, if you needed to borrow a little bit of money to help you run a business or to to do some of the other things that we need to do in life. And that was that was the kind of start point. And of course, now, they've got highly complex and involved in a whole range of things that they weren't involved in before. So I think the core people tend to forget what the core purpose of the bank is. But that's it, it's now changed and has morphed into a much broader set of offerings. So at what point have kids it's interesting, you say that, that they've morphed into this different entity. When when my wife and I went to go get a mortgage, we got a free toaster. And that is not exactly something that I was expecting to get from my bank. So what point did, did financial institutions change their function and start trying to compete for my business, as opposed to just being, let's say, a social licence of fulfilling a function? So I think that there were if you go back to way back when to society when everybody knew each other, and, you know, the way banks which used to lend money was very much predicated on knowing who you were as a as an individual. And everybody knew everybody else. So we're living in very small closed societies. And then over time, as we've become more globalized, as technology has permitted, as regulation has permitted banks to get involved in more activities, they've become seen less as partnerships and more as shareholder owned structures that had to generate a return that is subject to kind of market conditions, you've seen them broaden out and kind of chase other opportunities to to make money. So the sector, you know, became deregulated to certain extent and the opportunities for firms to operate in different spaces, some of which was incredibly helpful. So there's some very legitimate things, the banks, some of some of the derivative products, for example of banks have gone into very legitimate to allow companies to hedge risk. On the other hand, you've had quite a lot of speculative activity where they've been looking, you know, the extremities of investment banking, have been broadening that piece out. So I see we've sort of seen the expansion of what banks are able to and willing to do in order to generate their shareholders. What does that meant for us as consumers? Well, it's much more complicated. Now. There's a whole host more things going on. There are a lot more products available to us. A lot more People competing for us it's become a much more attractive space for people to be in returns in banking have been increasing over time. And they've had to increase over time to meet shareholder demand. So it's difficult to pinpoint exactly when the sort of transition you were talking about happened. But it should now if you if you were to go back 100 years ago, back 200 days, the picture looks very, very different. But the reality is today, that's where we are right banks are these multinational, huge conglomerates, I mean, even local banks, in a lot of cases, are starting to dabble in these investment banking style activities show for for our listeners, for the purposes of the average person, I guess, getting the best out of themselves, when dealing with their financial institution would have to start with an education process. Right? Why? What is the function of the of the bank? Or what is the function of the financial institution that you're going to? And what is it you're looking to get out of them? And I think sometimes, because there's, there's an entire terminology in this world, and there's, there's this kind of mystic aura around it, people sometimes will lose sight of that almost like, you know, go into a large retail store for a gallon of milk. And you walk out with $300 later with a whole bunch of stuff that you absolutely did not necessarily go there for. But, you know, to the listeners, who are who, who are trying to understand this. What are some of the questions that they can ask themselves? What are the ways that they can tee themselves up so that they, they understand the nature of the relationship and what they're trying to do? I think when if you look at what has gone wrong for the banking industry, where people have had difficulties with them, it has been in something called information asymmetry. And I'll put that in really simple terms, it means that one side of the, the transaction knows much more about it the other side, so in the case of you go to a bank, particularly a large thing, like a mortgage, or maybe a loan for a car, so substantial amount of money. Now, you're not going to be doing that very often in your lifetime, whereas the bank is writing mortgages on a daily hourly basis, right? So when you approach them to have a conversation about buying a house, the expert on the product, who understands it is bound to be the bank, because that's what they spend their time doing. You don't spend your time as an individual, you know, becoming an expert in mortgages, right? Because you're the person who's selling you, the person who's selling you the instrument is actually the expert in this area, which makes perfect sense. You're right. I mean, if you buy more than one or two houses in a lifetime, I mean, that's a lot. Right. So, so that that Okay, so what does that asymmetry mean to the average person? What is what is this that they should know walking into it? Well, so the simple answer is, you are never going to be on the same level as the financial institution that you're talking to, right, because this is what they do. And so one of the things that we've seen is interesting is regulators have stepped into this space. So one of the things that regulators force firms to do is a lot more disclosure to explain things in simple language, to kind of try and bridge that gap to to in very simple terms to protect you as a consumer, because it's not reasonable to expect you to go in there, particularly when there are large sums attached this right, a mortgage is a big commitment. So when you're going into make that sort of thing, they try and level the playing field a little bit by having regulations that require disclosure. Some countries, they allow things like cooling off periods, which is a sort of 10 to 14 day period, after you've signed a credit agreement, you can step away from that if you've made a mistake and attempts to kind of balance that out. So one of the things is to be very aware of what protections you're entitled to, and make sure that you're given all the information that's there. And in very simple terms, that means them explaining it to you in plain English. So my first tip for people is to say, recognize the fact that you are going into a situation where you are very likely to know significantly less than the person you're engaging with, and therefore it's incumbent on them. To explain this to you. In simple terms, ask lots of questions. be skeptical, be cynical, think about things and take your time. Right. One of the things that one of the one of the issues that we see is people rush into these things, because it's so complicated and so difficult. I just want to get this done. You know, I'm not interested in spending a huge amount of time thinking about how I finance my house, I'm more interested in picking the right house. And so so what we what we're in is a situation not only where there's that information asymmetry, but actually we are pressurized sometimes intentionally by the institution, but very often by ourselves to kind of get it done quickly. It's a horrible experience. Let's get this thing moving. I've got to sign all this paperwork, that feels like a lot. So how do I take this I'll just get on with it, or sign things. I'll just take what's there. It is worth stepping back a bit and recognizing that you are in a space where you are unlikely to be an expert. You're in a space where you might feel pressure, either by the institution putting on you or you putting on yourself taking a little bit more time thinking about it. feeling free to ask questions don't being rushed into things is a great Way to maximize your position and then recognize where regulators are helping you. So there's a whole load of information they're required to give you have a look at that there's a reason you're being presented with it. And just just be cautious. Take care. So one of the perks, first of all, that is absolutely phenomenal advice, anybody who's listening, please, please take, take that away. It's that you have to take somewhat of an ownership of your own actions. And one of the things that I love about Christian's company in his philosophy is human risk. The challenge we face around humans is decision making, right human decision making is fallible. And, you know, Christian, you and I were talking when we were preparing for this, the, the individual should have an interest in what's happening with the financial institution, because they have an influence on it, right? The people themselves, maybe not necessarily individually, but in groups will have an impact on how business is done with them. And, and, and conversely, how business is done with the individual is going to influence that individual. One of the things that I've heard you say a number of times in the media and other forums is that, as we've seen with the COVID pandemic, people have an effect on your life. So could you give us maybe an example of something where, you know, regulators are starting to protect people, the institutions themselves have a vested interest in giving you the best service that you can. But it's all it's all predicated on human beings, and human beings are fallible. So what are some of the ways that you think people could have more of an impact or more have an influence on these interactions that maybe they're not necessarily doing or they don't realize that they can do? So I think one of the things that's that's fascinating is what technology has enabled, and what technology enables is that we all have a voice that maybe like 10 years ago, we didn't have we were individual customer interfacing with it with a bank. Now, thanks to social media, thanks to mobile devices, where we can instantly record how we're feeling about something, you have an opportunity to speak up. And one of the things that we're seeing, I think, is a fabulous redressing of balance. So you're never going to be more of an expert than than the bank that you're coming up against. But what you do have is quite a lot of consumer power, which one enables you to shop around, so you've got a lot more transparency about what's available, you can see what competing offers are, you can research things a lot better than you could before. So you put yourself in a stronger position. And that allows you to make better decisions. The second bit is you have a consumer voice that you can use. And if we look at the impact of something like TripAdvisor has had on restaurants and hotels, then you can see the power of the crowd. Because if lots of people start saying this is a terrible business to, to interact with, you know, terrible hotel, the food is awful at this restaurant, that will have an impact on their business. And the same is true of financial services. So I would say if you are, you know, recognize that you hold in your hands the power now you as an individual might not matter that much. But if lots of individual start saying something they're recognized. So I would be looking, firstly, to read consumer reviews, you know, check out what other people think about this particular institution. But also, don't be afraid to use your own voice and add to that piece because one of the bits that's very powerful, as you say, is I as an individual am an individual transaction with with a firm, but lots of people can get together and take a view on something. And I think we have an opportunity. Now we're seeing it lots of different ways to work collectively to operate as a crowd, and all of a sudden, your voice does count, you can start influencing things. And so I think understanding that dynamic and recognizing where you might feel a little bit powerless in the face of large institutions, every single one of us has an our fingertips tools, and mechanisms to communicate and to share our experiences. That means that our voice can be much louder than it would be if we were just interfacing with the institution on its own. You can see companies being very careful about their online presence and what he said about them. And that's a super powerful thing that we can use to our advantage. I could not agree more. And I could actually give a little bit of further proof for that. So for those who are listening in the United States, in different types of investment professionals, there are rules in on how they're able to communicate with the public. And this TripAdvisor effect that Christians talking about is core to some of the marketing and advertising rules for these people. So for example, the rules are changing a little bit but for a very long time, the use of testimonials of any kind for a financial advisor for a fiduciary advisor in the United States was verboten. It was absolutely not permitted and And the reason for that was exactly what Christian was talking about this mob mentality, this mob effect of if, if you see that they have cherry picked 50 different reviews, and they're all fantastic, well, then that is going to then influence you, or give you a little bit more confidence to reach out to them. And conversely, if they're able to cherry pick some of the the poor reviews, or the people who are trying to use this pulpit, aren't able to do so in an effective way. So this is a very real thing. And it doesn't. I, I absolutely torture members of my family all the time, because they'll get tips from the hairdresser, or the barbers or something along those lines where they're getting a referral, this person had a great experience with them. And that's fantastic. I think referrals, especially personal referrals are a great way to narrow things down and to isolate who it is you want to speak to. But it sounds to me like what you're what you're advocating for is to take it to that next level that is that is necessary, but it's not sufficient in order to give you what a little bit of power to deal with that asymmetry is that is that pretty much what you're telling people. So your your point around recommendations from people, you know, that is incredibly powerful, because you have a long term relationship with them. So you trust them. So that makes it less likely they're going to make a bad recommendation, because there's an embarrassment factor associated with it. So I would always say to people, if you can find somebody that you can trust, who has a recommendation for you, providing you value their judgement on this particular topic. And it's of course, it's always worth being cynical around that and just making sure do they really know what they're talking about. But if they do, then then that is the best possible source. But for many of the things that we have to do day to day, we don't know anyone that can directly help us. I may not know anyone that's taken out a mortgage recently. I may not know anyone that's taken out a car loan risk, I may not know anyone that says, so what do I do? Well, the lovely thing is, there's information out there that I can source from other people. Now I have to be, I have to sort of approach that with an intelligent mindset and saying, I'm not just gonna read one review from a stranger that I've never come across. But I'll read a whole host of them, that will give me a good so when I'm approaching them, they'll give you a good idea. This is a perfect place to take a quick break because when we come back, we're going to be talking about how you have a lot more power and influence than you realize. And the tool that Krishna was talking about was really just one way to exercise that. So we're going to be right back in a few minutes after a quick commercial break. For the past 20 years, organizations have relied on alphanumeric matching to screen their customers against watchlist, which included linguistic problems, high volumes of false positive alerts and the challenges of identity fraud. basepoint offers the world's first biometric Risk Screening service, combining picture intelligence with cutting edge facial recognition technology, helping to resolve uncertain matches, accelerate KYC and identify fraudulent behavior, face point screening, because there's more information in a face than a name. Learn more at basepoint that Co. Okay, we're back with Kristian hunt, who is the founder of human risk. And what we're trying to discuss today is the different risk factors of human decision making, and how you can incorporate these things into your interactions with different financial institutions. And thus far we've been talking about is the the role of a financial institution or the role of a bank, and ways in which the power dynamic is very much skewed towards that financial institution, because they are the experts. But as Christian has said, No numerous times and how his philosophy is you have more power than you realize, one of the things that he had mentioned was the the critical thinking aspect of it, doing your due diligence, doing a little bit of online research. And and recognizing that just because they make you an offer, does not mean that you have to accept it. But there's more that we can do. So Christian, one thing that I know you are famous for talking about is cognitive bias. And first of all, thankfully, I'm married to a researcher. So I actually know what that is through just osmosis. But I would argue the average person out there does not understand what cognitive bias actually is. So could you explain that show, and I'll try and keep it super simple, but the way that our brains operate, and these are brains that were designed way back when for a much, much simpler world, they weren't designed to deal with the levels of inflation. meishan that we try and put through them at the moment, the way our brains work is that we are we are optimized for quick decision making, right, we want to, we want to be able to make decisions quickly. And that served our ancestors really, really well. It take don't want to have to think about things too, because in a very simple world, if there was an animal chasing you, you need to be able to respond too quickly. So we have a brain that allows us to make very, very quick decisions. And the right can open the door if I have my coffee in the wrong hand. And the way that we make very quick decisions is that we use these shortcuts that are known as cognitive biases that people always associate the word bias with a negative, look at it just simply as being this is a shortcut, a quick way that we can make decisions efficiently and using the brain cost a lot of energy. So what's an example of a cognitive bias? Well, one of the things that we do is we use something called confirmation bias. Now, this is the idea that when we are looking forward to making decisions, we will focus heavily on information that confirms what we already know, we have a viewpoint on something, we'll go searching for it. So if you're like me, you will buy a product. And you will read reviews of that product or that movie, after you bought it or seen it as a means of sort of confirming that you will write all along. And so very often we ignore information that contradicts our existing viewpoint because it's uncomfortable, and focus on the things that we want to hear. And so once we made our mind up about something, it's very difficult to shift that opinion, that is a natural program that we have, because it makes life a lot easier for us. And that works really well where your initial gut instinct is, is smart, where you've got it right, then you don't need to have challenges in your day to think about stuff. But in the modern world, if somebody put a bad idea into our heads, the ability we have to shift that is radically diminished because of this, this confirmation bias. And it's just one example of a process that we have put in place that allows us to take quick decisions. And so you know, another one would be that we something called social proof, we copy what other we have a tendency to copy what other people do. So if we see lots of other people doing something, we take comfort from that really smart shortcut, and sometimes can be very powerful, you don't need to know why there's a ton of people running away from a situation, if there's loads of people running, you should probably join them without worrying too much about why work. And then how that would would be dangerous, and at least at a very minimum, a necessary thing for people to be cognizant of when dealing with a financial institution. Because, as you'd said earlier, correctly, that the scope of financial institutions, since they started has grown exponentially. And they are in almost every facet of your life at this point. So So just because lots of other people buy a product or buy something from a financial institution, that does not necessarily mean it's okay for you then though, is it? And that kind of gets that that cognitive bias that you're talking about? Right? Right. So so we have a tendency to copy what other people do so we will, you know, how do you pick a restaurant a city that you've that you've been you arrive in a new city? How do you pick a restaurant? Well, it's a pretty good bet. If there's a place that's really full, lots of people eating there, that is a good place to go. If there's one that's empty, no one's eating there, you kind of don't need to know why you're looking at it, no one else is eating there. That seems a bit weird. So in that situation, makes a lot of sense to use that proxy for how do I decide which restaurants get on copy other people, and that there are tons of situations where that makes perfect sense. There are also situations where if you are copying the wrong people think about it as getting in with the wrong crowd. We know our parents warn us against that as we're kids, we are influenced by the behavior of the people around us. If they're the right people, they know what they're doing, that's a really smart choice. If they are bad people, and we copy them, that's not smart. Now, in the context of interfacing with a bank, just because something is incredibly popular, lots of people have bought this particular mortgage, that doesn't mean it's right doesn't mean it's right for you. And so being aware of the fact that we often just go well, if lots of other people don't, it must be okay, can be very smart, can be a really bad cool, just because it works for all of them doesn't necessarily mean it works for you. And the more complicated your situation, the more complicated the product you're buying, the more you just need to step back and go, am I just being swayed by lots of other people doing this? Or is this the right solution for me, and maybe you need something that's not right for anyone else, maybe there's a product out there that's not being bought by many people, that is perfect for you. And it's therefore worth saying, I'm okay with stepping away from the crowd. Because the crowd is buying it for very different reasons. And I'm buying from my reason, rather than just saying, I will do it because everybody else does it. And that's the bit that we have to sort of jolt ourselves and say, am I just going with the flow? And that might make sense? Or am I thinking actually, maybe this is a time when I don't need to go with the crowd. Maybe I need to do something that's unique and different to meet my circumstances. And that is a concept that regulators have actually been been aware of for years. And they're starting to move on that a little bit in terms of trying to help help the consumer address that from a regulatory perspective. So that so that people in the financial space must go through those steps in order to help someone understand just because something's popular doesn't mean it's necessarily right for you. A perfect example of this is a there's a new regulation in the United States called regulation, best interest. And what you're seeing is, they're trying to combat this problem when some financial advisors either they're they're selling complex products, or they're selling annuities, when you look at their book of business 85% of the time, they're selling the same annuity to people. Now, one could argue that that's, that's perfectly acceptable, because let's say they're dealing with retirees who were either at or near their retirement, if they're dealing with a particular type of persona, than having a consistent recommendation that fits that persona makes sense. But at the very minimum, regulators want to make sure that, that that analysis is done on an individual level. And so that's going to lead us into our next point, which is and I cannot take credit for this, I swear after the show, I will be stealing this from Christian 100% of the time. Do not outsource your thinking to the regulator. I love that line. I said I'm gonna steal it from here on out, I will give you a little bit of a brownie point every time. But the the concept that people are watching out for you should not give you a false sense of security. Right? I the, you know, I think an example that you constantly use in your talks are disclaimers. And so could you explain how disclaimers are meant to help those who are listening. And also give them a little bit of insight into this idea of outsourcing your thinking to the regulator. Right. So disclaimers are an interesting example. So you'll recognize these and you know, you see disclaimers on financial products, you see them, particularly those of you based in the US that watch commercials on TV for any kind of medication, there's a ton of information, there are warnings associated with this, this particular piece, and I'm not mature enough for any of those warnings. They say certain things and I start cackling like I'm 10 years old. It's right. Right, exactly. So they do the same thing for financial services products. So there's a ton of warnings there that are put there by regulatory requirement, because banks wouldn't necessarily want to disclose this stuff, right, because this is talking about the downsides and the things you need to look out for. And so regulators say you need to put a load of disclosures there so that people have information that will allow them to better evaluate the product, not information you would naturally put, but we're going to require you to put out that and let the logic being regulators are basically saying we want to put the general public in a better position to understand what they're getting into. We want them to be cautious, and we want to warn them. But what they've actually discovered in experiments is that when people see disclaimers, particularly when there's a name of a regulator in there, our brains do something really interesting, which is they go, Ah, somebody looked at this, right, this is covered by regulation, and therefore, they wouldn't be allowed to sell this product. If it was if there was any problem with it. Right? Somebody check this out. So I don't need to think. And far from being a warning that we need to pay more attention. Actually, what our brains do in many cases is go Hey, it's cool. Someone else has looked at this, I don't need to think right, this has been covered by someone else, I can drop my guard because it's been. And so that is precisely what they don't want to have happen. But it's precisely what does often happen. So the first thing to watch out is be really cautious when you're in a world of dislike know, the fact that there's a strong likelihood you might fall into that trap of assuming it's okay, right. So if they've put disclaimers on there, if they've put side effects on the side of a packet of pills, do read those because they're there for a good reason. But the second thing is recognize that when you have a regulator stepping in, they are looking to cover it from a societal perspective. They're going to pick up stuff that's relevant to a broad range of people. They're not going to be looking out for your specific interest. And we because we are cognitively lazy, we like to take quick decisions. One of those things is to go Oh, okay, it's regulated. That's what the regulator's therefore they're there to check that stuff out for me. So I don't have to think for myself, they'll keep those bad banks in check. That is not how it works. And so when I talk about outsourcing of thinking the regulator, just because the regulator has permitted a particular product to be released, just because the regulator has allowed a bank to undertake critical activity doesn't mean it's right for you. And my point around outsourcing is if we just sit there and go, Oh, it's okay. It's been checked out by someone else, I don't need to think then we are effectively outsourcing our thinking. So single risk management to the regulator. And that's really dangerous because the regulator isn't thinking of you as an individual, they're thinking about a broader societal piece. So those disclaimers are there for a reason, they often don't work the way you want. So what I say to people is you got to think for yourself, don't think that the regulator will have covered everything, they are covering a whole load of stuff that's really valuable, really important. If they weren't, there will be a whole lot worse. But you got to be thinking for yourself. And so that's the, that's the mindset that I want people to go into these things with, is that you've got to be looking out for your own interests, asking questions for your own particular situation. And that's, that's why I love the concept of human risk. It's the vast majority of the of the hundreds of 1000s of people in the financial services industry all throughout the world. They want to do the right thing. These are just average everyday people who we're paid to do a job. And whether it's helping you buy a house or helping you invest money, or helping you plan for retirement, whatever the case may be, they're trying to do the right thing. And then the regulator's have, they're trying to do the right thing as well, trying to set up the board in a way that it's fair for everyone to play. So you have you have the regulator's watching out for you trying to set up the board in the in the most fair way possible, you have all of these good, decent, hard, you know, hard working people trying to service you through various facets of the finance industry. And at the same time, people are fallible, people are human, they may not necessarily stop at that stop sign every time they may not necessarily have they may not have the foresight to realize that even though something doesn't seem wrong, it is. So it's really incumbent upon the individual to ask questions, and the good ones will answer the questions for you. Right. I mean, Christian, like one of the things I've I've never seen, I've never seen anyone in a financial institution, get get upset or angry with someone for asking for clarification. Now I've seen, trust me, I've seen people get get a little bit onerous. And you know, when asked me like, Hey, listen, this comma seems to be in the wrong place, I have actually had a retail client that reached out to me as a csio, because there was a typo. This person was particularly upset about that. And but other than that, I when it comes to making people feel comfortable, even even without exercising your power on social media, and even without the amplification that technology gives you as an individual, I'd have to believe that the human risk piece is somewhat mitigated by people trying to do the right thing for everybody. So human risk is all about this idea that the largest risk facing us. And I can probably say as a species, but certainly for for most companies and organizations is human decision making. And that sounds like a bold statement until you think about it so well when things go wrong. There is typically a human being involved causing the problem in the first place, or making it worse by the way that they react to it. And so what I do is I help companies to think about that. And to recognize that actually, when you are employing people, they are on the one hand, they can be brilliant, they can be creative, they can be intelligent, they can be super smart. On the other hand, they can also be dumb, and make really bad decisions. And we have to have, you can't have one without the other. That is what makes us human beings. And so what I help people do is to think about the reasons why human decision making isn't always optimal. Now, what works for an organization also works for us individually. We have all done things if we're honest, that are occasionally dumb, made bad decisions, we've bought products that perhaps we shouldn't have, though, we've paid over the odds, we've made bad calls on things, we've also made a ton of really good calls as well. And so what I try to do is to help people understand what what are the reasons that we might be making those mistakes. So one example might with cop, we just doing what everybody else is doing. Could be really smart could be really dumb if we start to recognize what these drivers are, and the reasons that we are fallible. The reasons for example, that some advertising works on us think about, you know, why do they advertise things in a particular way is because the human brain trigger, they know how to press our buttons, you know, they wouldn't be spending millions of dollars on things if advertising didn't work. So we are susceptible to all sorts of influences that might lead us to make bad decisions. And so what I tried to do is to work with organizations and with individuals to help them think about well, when might that happen? And what can we do to mitigate it? Now you can't eliminate it because we are human and we will make mistakes but what you can do is to try and eliminate it instead. uation is when it really matters. And so a good example would be, you don't want to be screwing up when you're taking out a mortgage. So that is a situation where I would say to people put extra protections in place for yourself. Buy yourself a bit more time. Think about what this is the right thing. ask those questions that you might ordinarily be embarrassed to answer. There is no shame in being dumb in this situation, not understanding. And so you can put in place things that make it not guaranteed, but make it more likely that you will make a good decision in that situation. And that's true words have never been said. Kristin hunt is the founder of human risk and he helps individuals and financial institutions bring science to compliance. So Christian, can you please tell people how to get in touch with you and learn a little bit more about your company? So always delighted to connect with people on LinkedIn if you search for human risk, you'll find me on Twitter you'll find me at human risk Ltd. and human dash risk comm is where you go if you want to find out about my podcast newsletter a ton of other resources. Thanks again for listening. Please don't forget to subscribe if you have an idea for a show or if you're interested in being a guest. We would love to hear from you. So drop us a line at podcast at nice atomized calm. Don't forget we have bonus content for every episode available at atomized. Nice comm forward slash podcast. Christian I want to thank you again for being with us and we will see you on the next episode of Let's talk Finn